DM10, 35 additional sounds via MIDI!!!

[Hellfire]

As I was playing around with my DM10 today, I made one heck of a discovery. You can access 35 (yes I said 35) additional sounds with midi. Each one of the 35 sound location are totally editable. Meaning FX, EQ, Decay, Layer A B ect.

That means you could fill all the inputs of the DM10 (22 zones), add an Alesis Trigger I/O and fill all inputs (20 zones), add an Alesis Control Pad (8 zones), and still have room for 7 mores zones!

Technically you could have an additional hi-hat (second hi-hat, using the Trigger I/O) as well. The catch is, it would be a simple switch hi-hat (non-variable).

That's what I call vertical equipment integration. :D

[CaTaPulT]

That's what I call vertical equipment integration. :D

CaTaPulT looks up........
CaTaPulT looks down......
CaTaPulT shrugs his shoulders in disbelief.......
a light bulb come on over CaTaPulT's head......

"Ahhhhhh" says CaTaPulT...... "but I'm a horizontal kind of guy!" LOL :D
Take care

Regards: >>>> Jack <<<<

[dschrammie]

Somehow, I'm envisioning Wiley Coyote in front of a chalk board with a very intricate and detailed diagram.

[Hellfire]

Somehow, I'm envisioning Wiley Coyote in front of a chalk board with a very intricate and detailed diagram.
It's funny you say that because, Wiley Coyote is my favorite cartoon guy. I think I had him on one of my "A" for a while.:)

[Hellfire]

One correction. You could have 3 hi-hats using the above set-up. That is because the Alesis control pad also has a hi-hat pedal input. Again, hi-hats 2 and 3 would be switch type only but still. Also, you can add 2 more external triggers via the control pad two external trigger jacks. All of that should use up all 35 additional sounds. That would be one heck of a kit.:D

With all the super large kits being built around here, I though of how to use the DM10 to do the same thing. Here's a pic to help visualize what I'm talking about:

http://edrumforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=288&stc=1&d=1260810142

[WildWes]

No pic HF - Red X in white box?

[wildcat]

Pics is good now.
Dam that's a lot of zones.

[Hellfire]

Dam that's a lot of zones.
Yep, and each zone is totally editable thru the DM10.:D

[wbrs]

Maybe just get one good one.

[ghostman]

Okay, I need to get the DM10..

[dauzman]

Does the DM10 let you use all 16 midi channels??? Its a drag when your limited to using one midi channel . I know yamaha has included the use of 16 midi channels since the DTX in song mode. Do any other modules have this ? Thats always been a big drawback of drum modules. Even my old K2000 does 8 drum channels of 127 sounds at a time plus voices on the additional 8 for tunable voices 16 full channels of sounds . Thats 1024 voices on line at a time just waiting to be talked to ...

[Hellfire]

Does the DM10 let you use all 16 midi channels??? Its a drag when your limited to using one midi channel . I know yamaha has included the use of 16 midi channels since the DTX in song mode. Do any other modules have this ? Thats always been a big drawback of drum modules. Even my old K2000 does 8 drum channels of 127 sounds at a time plus voices on the additional 8 for tunable voices 16 full channels of sounds . Thats 1024 voices on line at a time just waiting to be talked to ...
If I understand you correctly, you are wanting to know if all the other midi channels can have all of their midi notes assigned like the drum channel? If that is what you are asking then no it can not. I didn't even know that was possible with any modern drum modules. Can Roland or Yamaha do this? If they can, then there is no reason to have more than one module (unless you just want different sounds). You would just need one module and a couple TMI's (Trigger Midi Interface).

The DM10 can transmit and recognize channels 1-16. One channel is used for the drums (ch 10 default) and the other is used for the accomp (ch 1 default). You can choose which channel for each you want to use. You can assign the accomp intrument, but you can not assign each note in the accomp. At least from what I have seen so far. I may have to do a little more digging.

[dauzman]

Thats what I figured. Its just really odd no one seems to care about this. Its like getting a 16th of a sound module. Keyboard modules do this but drum modules are made with a small fraction of sound generating capability. I know most guys overlook the short comings of drum modules being sold. I try to get guys to understand the reasons a capable controller are so important. It just seems like a rip off to me... I have 15 year old technology that blows away the latest offerings from the major manufactures of electronic drums. The only one I can give any props to is Yamaha ... I just think sending and receiving on all 16 channels is a must. ...I guess its the trade offs by putting it all in one box....

[dschrammie]

Let's pretend for a second that we have no idea what you guys are talk about...how would you explain it to a layperson in a way that covers everything you're saying, but doesn't go over eveyone's heads?

[dauzman]

Think of a midi module as a 16 lane highway... Each lane can have 127 cars. The optimum situation is your controller can send out on any lane and note and your sound module can receive on any channel and note. Most drum modules can only send on one channel and 127 notes.

[Hellfire]

Thats what I figured. Its just really odd no one seems to care about this. Its like getting a 16th of a sound module. Keyboard modules do this but drum modules are made with a small fraction of sound generating capability. I know most guys overlook the short comings of drum modules being sold. I try to get guys to understand the reasons a capable controller are so important. It just seems like a rip off to me... I have 15 year old technology that blows away the latest offerings from the major manufactures of electronic drums. The only one I can give any props to is Yamaha ... I just think sending and receiving on all 16 channels is a must. ...I guess its the trade offs by putting it all in one box....
I see what you are saying but the Alesis DM10 is a lot cheaper than the other guys (currently) and with 57 zones (58 if you count the one assignable on channel #1) that's not too shabby. Especially, will you factor in the great trigger controls perimeter that are in the DM10. Admittedly, 1,042 zone is much larger and I now can see why you would want all 16 lanes (midi channels) open, but I personally would not feel trapped by a limitation of only 58 zones.:) (at least for what I do anyway).

[dauzman]

Its true Phil and the DM10 offers alot of bang for the buck in todays offerings. Since I was involved with the KAT company I saw the reasons for having open lines of communication between a controller and sound module and could not imagine downgrading to limited communication... For the cost of some of these kits being offered someone could get a drumKAT a computer with software and a pad set that has limitless upgrades at the least cost...IMO

[dschrammie]

Think of a midi module as a 16 lane highway... Each lane can have 127 cars. The optimum situation is your controller can send out on any lane and note and your sound module can receive on any channel and note. Most drum modules can only send on one channel and 127 notes.

Okay...now can you describe a scenario of how that's used in a "real life" application? Like a sitaution where that kind of big "highway" is useful, and then maybe an explanation of how it's limited with a typical module.
I'm just realizing that I'm far more ignorant than I thought when it comes to MIDI. I thought I knew the basics of it, but once you guys started throwin' out these multi-channel things, I got a little lost.

[dauzman]

Well the easiest thing to understand would be as a user of this type of gear the power is all in the amount of information your controller can send out and your module can receive. If your controller sends out only note# Channel #and velocity that's all your module can do. What if your working with other musicians with gear and their sounds are on channel 1 and you want to play them as part of your performance on channel 10, no go if your module only transmits on one channel. I play multiple modules from one controller and the ability to play on multiple channels is the only way it can be done.

[Scorch Whammin]

Let's pretend for a second that we have no idea what you guys are talk about...how would you explain it to a layperson in a way that covers everything you're saying, but doesn't go over eveyone's heads?

Agree!!...lol...I've read this thread through a couple times and still not quite sure what was said!!....LOL...I guess I really need to go read up on MIDI...dauz..thanks for trying to explain..:)

[WildWes]

I play multiple modules from one controller and the ability to play on multiple channels is the only way it can be done.

In my case dauz, your going to need to dumb it further down for me to understand this. Probably not possible for you to do it without flow charts, visual props and lots of alcohol :-O

[dauzman]

Looks like you guys fail at midi drums 101... Im so disappointed....This is not rocket science... Even Phil got it...

[Hellfire]

Looks like you guys fail at midi drums 101... Im so disappointed....This is not rocket science... Even Phil got it...
LOL, Yeah, even Phil got it!:D If he got it and you caaaannnnn'tt....Ummm, wait a minute, that's me.:confused:

[dauzman]

Sorry Phil, That came out wrong.... I didnt mean it like that... I guess this is why plug and play becomes so popular and products are stripped down to users unaware of the what they lose to have that title. Get less and pay more and be happy...

[WildWes]

Looks like you guys fail at midi drums 101... Im so disappointed....This is not rocket science... Even Phil got it...

Apparently, I missed the rocket science class. Hmmm, where did I put that "Midi for Dummies" book?

LOL, Yeah, even Phil got it!:D If he got it and you caaaannnnn'tt....Ummm, wait a minute, that's me.:confused:

At least he tried to give you a compliment Phil. Now, I've got to add dauz to the long list of people that are dissappointed in me.

[Hellfire]

Sorry Phil, That came out wrong.... I didnt mean it like that... I guess this is why plug and play becomes so popular and products are stripped down to users unaware of the what they lose to have that title. Get less and pay more and be happy...
No big deal. I was just having a little fun at your expense.:D I knew what you meant.

If you guys want a good book on midi. Try finding a book titled "MIND OVER MIDI". It is kind of dated (1987:eek:), but the info is still good. Midi really hasn't changed much. Heck, this book even shows you how to read those midi implementation charts that are at the back of your drum module manual.

Once you guys understand midi, it will open up the flood gates to what is possible. If you want to run VST's, you need to know midi. Want to run a drum machine off you drum module. It can be done with midi. You can even hook a keyboard up to your drum module with midi. And yes, you can even control equipment with midi.

[dauzman]

Phil, Thanks for posting that knowing something about midi is very important. Look at how much you guys spend in time and money on midi gear with no knowledge of it. Once you have a basic handle on the basics you really can do alot of cool stuff.... These manufactures know your lack of knowledge make you come back to buy their next version of the thing you bought before by adding a bell or whistle that should have been there in the first place... You can pay less and get more if your just a bit educated on what is important and what is just hype...

[dschrammie]

Hmmmm...somehow I'm not getting any warm fuzzy feeling here. I'm kind of feeling like I've just been told I'm an idiot.
I fully admit that I'm relatively ignorant when it comes to MIDI and how it can be used...but at least I'm asking. And what I'm hoping that we can share is infomation on what it is we're missing out on, how it can actually be applied, and then if we are really in fact missing out on anything.
Being told that we're ignorant and that we've wasted our time and money on equipment and technology that we don't understand wasn't exactly the response that I thought we'd get. I don't know, maybe you don't feel like writing a long-winded response, maybe you're convinced that it's above our heads and we're not going to get it, maybe you're thinking "hey, figure it out for yourself."
This seemed like a good opportunity to expand on a subject that clearly many of us are at least interested in.

[dauzman]

Didnt mean to come across like that ... I'm sorry if you took it that way... It was not ment to put any one down... I'm more then happy to pass along any knowledge I have. Trying to get someone to understand is a tough one when they don't think its important and the burden to convince them is a uphill battle. Please accept any apology to any one I offended...

[audiopat]

What helped me understand MIDI protocol on many channels was that if you think about a MIDI channel as a 'voice' and each 'voice' can say 127 things. So a piano voice can play 127 notes, or a drumset 'voice' can have 127 pieces. Your controller determines which 'voices' are activated.
Then there are Continuous Controller notes for each 'Voice' which control things like pitch bend, modulation, or hi-hat control. MIDI is a HUGELY powerful protocol. Worth learning about, especially for e-musicians.

[dschrammie]

Didnt mean to come across like that ... I'm sorry if you took it that way... It was not ment to put any one down... I'm more then happy to pass along any knowledge I have. Trying to get someone to understand is a tough one when they don't think its important and the burden to convince them is a uphill battle. Please accept any apology to any one I offended...

Hey, thanks Dauz...I need to remind myself (constantly) that inflections and intentions are often lost when we're on forums. I actually am quite interested in learning more about how to use MIDI and the capabilities/possibilities. I didn't mean to sound like I think it's not important...I was more trying to express that I don't truly know/understand how it can be applied in more advanced scenarios. For me, typically I think of MIDI as just being a command protocol, that it's just telling some kind of software/program "when I do this, you play this." And normally I just think of it as simply going from the drum pads, through an interface, and to software (BFD, Sup2.0, etc.)...and the impression that I have is that is achieved on one MIDI channel. For the most part it sounds like the "basic" MIDI capability provided by modules accomplishes that...but it sounds like what you're saying is that it can be used for so much more in addition to that.

I know that years back I was trying to do some workstation composing between Cakewalk, a Korg N1 keyboard/synthesizer, and my TD-7. The thing that always hung me up and eventually made me give up on it was trying to figure out MIDI mapping. Who knows, maybe it was this issue of not being able to use 16 channels that was hanging me up and I never knew it (I was trying to do multi-track recording through Cakewalk, using different instruments with the Korg for each track, like violin, trumpet, etc...).

Sounds like maybe I need to do a little more reading and research to gain a slightly better understanding before I try this endeavor again. Looks like there are tons of different MIDI basics books out there.

[dauzman]

Its all good... I think we are all here for the same reason , to pass along info to others who might not know. I am fully aware that most guys don't expect as much from their gear as I do... Ive always felt empowered by the tools that are available to all of us and feel drummers are being sold short in the offerings by the companies that own this industry ....R___D. As much as we all want to simulate acoustic drum performances that's just the tip of the iceberg of what we can do with tools like these. Electronic drums are not acoustic drums ( even though they get pretty close ) they are so much more and the forms of expression that can be achieved are mind blowing when we think outside the box !!!!

[dschrammie]

Here's another somewhat general question for you. Is there a way to know just from looking at a product's specifications if you have the "full" spectrum of MIDI capability or not? In looking at specs for the DTX3, TD-20, and the DM10, they all just say that there's MIDI In and Out (Thru was only mentioned on the TD-20 as Out/Thru).

[dauzman]

No not really.... The problem is none of the companies ( Roland, Alesis or Yamaha ) offer a solid controller set. Yamaha has the best set for sending and receiving midi data out in their system of the group.. Its best to look at a system as 3 components and get the best of each. Controller , Sound Module , Pad set..

[WildWes]

Is a "Contoller" the same as a "Module"? I've never heard of a controller before.

[dauzman]

The drum modules we all have are controllers with sound modules, but they really have a stripped down controller set. There really is only one drum controller that really allows you to control midi effectively ,the drumKAT from alternate mode. It has no sounds but its controller functions kick ass . I made a cool controller just as powerful for Kurzweil years ago called the Eventstation but only made 50 prototypes before the dumped the project.

[Hellfire]

The drum modules we all have are controllers with sound modules, but they really have a stripped down controller set. There really is only one drum controller that really allows you to control midi effectively ,the drumKAT from alternate mode. It has no sounds but its controller functions kick ass . I made a cool controller just as powerful for Kurzweil years ago called the Eventstation but only made 50 prototypes before the dumped the project.
Do you own the rights to the Eventstation? If you do, maybe you should look in to getting it manufactured. Just thinking out loud. Chances are Kurzweil owns the rights.:(

[dauzman]

Actually I had worked with StarLabs who built it as a outside vendor. I had thought about it but this stuff costs alot of money. Kind of a big risk... I have a few prototypes left ...I use one to trigger video and do CC effects. It has a great controller set and does remapping. It does alot of cool stuff...